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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with dr. Janet Kali about her new book

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sacred encounters you have an Iraqi war

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veteran who walks into your office and

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says I'm suffering post-traumatic stress

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syndrome which 20 years ago again was

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highly controversial but now we'd say

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okay yeah and you'd have a series of

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protocols that you might take that

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person through what are the limits on

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what you can do with someone like that

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versus what you do with someone who

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comes in and said I think I had an

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encounter with alien beings and I've had

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this for a long time and it's really

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causing me a lot of stress as a

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clinician how do you deal with those two

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situations how are they similar how are

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they different you know what I would say

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that the nervous system we don't make up

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trauma the signs of trauma are pretty

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well recognized now that knowledge and

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those experiences pretty much

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overwhelmed all of the questions of

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while are people making up things you

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want to treat it as trauma and to some

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degree respect what people are saying

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even if you yourself are not sure of the

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objective so-called objective reality of

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what happened

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex a Karason on this

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episode we talk with dr. Janet Coley

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about her book sacred encounters now dr.

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Coley is a practicing clinical

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psychologist with a background in

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transpersonal psychology and her book is

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quite remarkable right up our alley in

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that it kind of reaches beyond the

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normal limits of consciousness and takes

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the larger implications of consciousness

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research and that is that if

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consciousness extends beyond our little

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brain then how far does it extend and

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she takes that all the way to alien

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encounters UFO encounters which is a

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topic that I've been interested in a lot

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lately because it seems like one of

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those taboo topics that despite the

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enormous implications of it is avoided

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by most people now let me read for you

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now let me read for you an Amazon review

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of dr. Coley's book again the book is

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sacred encounters and here's what one

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Amazon reviewer writes I have read a lot

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of et / UFO related books and I would

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have to put this close to the top in my

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own mind there's a progression in

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so-called UFO literature at the base

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would be older books dealing with the

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so-called nuts and bolts of UFO

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sightings that have value convincing

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skeptics that UFOs are real at the apex

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I would place books dealing with wisdom

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of star beings or their part in

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consciousness transformation sacred

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encounters deals extensively with

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consciousness transformation in the

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lives of contactees that dr. Coley

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worked with as the stories unfold we see

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the initial extreme fear eventually

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replaced by love and feelings of family

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or community towards the et beings

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they're interacting with now I read for

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you that review of the book because we

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talk very little

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all about the book in this interview and

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the reason for that is I don't know if

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it's my fault or just the interaction

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between me and dr. Coley but I feel like

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there's such a big gap here between

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believers in this case believers in

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alien contact and non-believers and that

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is everyone who isn't totally on board

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well I feel that gap can't be easily

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bridged and maybe it can't be bridged in

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a one-hour interview like I tried to do

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here but instead where I took it where I

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took this interview was an attempt

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bridge that gap and as a lead-in to the

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interview that I did with dr. Coley let

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me play for you some of the conversation

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we had before the actual interview

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because I think it'll give you a feel

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for what I'm talking about here here's a

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conversation where dr. Coley asked me

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okay who is the skeptical audience and I

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tell her and then we get into I think

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some of the skeptical kind of issues in

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terms of how we know what we know listen

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to this for a few minutes and I'll come

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back on and tee up the rest of the

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interview

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how would you characterize your audience

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if I might ask no I'm glad you did my

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audience is you know very open-minded

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and progressive minded so we just kind

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of called the skeptical nonsense for

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what it is and say you know that's just

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a crazy irrational worldview that just

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totally doesn't make sense but in the

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spirit of doing that I think we have to

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remain skeptical as well and when we get

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into consciousness there's a lot of

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different people saying a lot of

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different things out there in the

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example I always use is reincarnation

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I've had on a variety of people

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respectable people and they'll tell you

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anything from it's an illusion it

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doesn't really happen and that you know

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they've ascended to the next level and

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their masters spirit guides are saying

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there's no such thing as reincarnation

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or someone will say there's some

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multiple simultaneous reincarnation z'

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at the same time I just heard that from

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mm-hmm from my last guest dr. Julie

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Asante who

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is really bright and has written a book

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that you know a lot of the top people

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really really like and I'm okay with

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that but then you know that flies in the

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face of somebody else's says well you

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can you know from the old spiritual

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spiritualism of the early 1900s we learn

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that you could reincarnate three times

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yeah I mean so I guess what I'm saying

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is we need healthy skepticism beyond

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this silly ridiculous

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you're a biological robot skepticism you

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do a great job of this in your book and

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that's that this is you speaking I'm a

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professional I I'm a people helper

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people come to me and I and I help them

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and this is what I do so when I get

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these anomalous experiences here's how I

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process them I say could it be this

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could it be this could be this and when

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none of those things fall into place

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then I say okay now I have to kind of

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expand my thinking and go into this yeah

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okay you know what a good thing to a

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good rule of thumb is I'm not out here

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to convince anybody I'm I'm gonna share

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my experiences and maybe some of the

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people I've worked with or know of and

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share a perspective and by sharing that

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if people you know if people if it opens

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up somebody else's or causes them to see

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or think in a new way that's great but I

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won't try to convince anybody because

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that's that's that's where we run afoul

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see you know because you really have as

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you say you kind of have to live it and

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I can't give any nobody else's in my

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body but me

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right and so you know if I could do a

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Vulcan mind-meld right that that might

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work but but I can only kind of you know

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open up a window into my reality and you

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can look in a bit but but ultimately I'm

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not walking around in your shoes and

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you're not walking around in mind so I'm

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not going to try to convince anyone of

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Oh a lien z' exists or not it's just you

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want to know what it's like to to be in

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this

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world I can share that I can share a bit

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of that and that's what that's when it

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gets interesting the experience thing is

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tricky too right because I've run into

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people who say well this is this is my

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experience I'm sorry you know this is my

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experience that's like well no wait a

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minute this is what we're this is the

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game we're all playing is this consensus

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reality game that I can compare my

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experience to your experience and then I

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can compare it to a larger body of

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experiences and I can glean something

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out of that okay so that's where we

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started and then where we headed was I

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guess I'm responsible for taking us

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there but kind of deconstruction of how

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we even know the transpersonal

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psychology is a worthwhile pursuit in

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how we would fit some of these

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extraordinary experiences into the

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scientific model we have for

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understanding this of course we didn't

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get to the meat of dr. Koh Lee's book

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which is fascinating of course and right

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up my alley and so relevant to the

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topics that I want to get into and that

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is the connection between extended

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consciousness / spirituality and these

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encounters that people seem to be having

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with other alien species but maybe we'll

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leave that for a future interview for

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now here's my dialogue with dr. Janet

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Coley today we welcome psychotherapist

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and author dr. Janet Elizabeth colita

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skeptic Oh to discuss her book sacred

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encounters spiritual awakenings during

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Close Encounters yes we are going there

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with Close Encounters so with dr. Kali

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welcome to skeptic oh thanks so much for

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joining me

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well thank you for having me this is

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great well it's gonna be an interesting

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ride your topic your book is obviously

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going to be very controversial to a

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number of people I can only imagine some

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of the conversations you've had with

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your colleagues

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maybe we can get

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- that at some point but what I thought

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we might do is just start with you

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telling us a little bit about yourself

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and in particular about your training as

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a psychotherapist you know I just had a

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story published in Bernie Siegel's book

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a book of miracles it's about my

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experience with cancer I would have to

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say that that's a real starting point

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for me in how I got into doing my work

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as a psychotherapist

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so my write-up is in that book and my

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experience in healing was extraordinary

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and that is how I got into working with

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people that have other extraordinary

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experiences so your experience with

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cancer led you to want to help other

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people so you're a therapist now and

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what kind of patients do you work with I

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work with all kinds of patients all

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kinds of clients but the the work I like

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to do best is transpersonal work

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transpersonal work generally has has

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some sense or some aspect of trauma in

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it so you have to have a firm grounding

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in trauma which is why I studied

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clinical psychology and I take off from

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that foundation into the transpersonal

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now close encounters are going to fall

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into transpersonal psychology it's going

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to be non ordinary you're dealing with

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altered states so I did my graduate work

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with a firm foundation in clinical

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psychology but you're taking off from

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there and you're including work with the

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numinous the sacred the non ordinary and

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what is outside the box I knew I wanted

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to study close encounters because I read

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one of the best cases in US policy that

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exists and I resonated and knew that

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this woman was in a mystical and offense

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mystical experience and I wanted to

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study that but it wasn't until I had

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cancer that I had the real grounding in

274
00:13:00,280 --> 00:12:57,060
my own personal experience and that's so

275
00:13:04,940 --> 00:13:00,290
necessary you have to have some way to

276
00:13:07,610 --> 00:13:04,950
identify with or resonate or have a

277
00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:07,620
sense of what the people you're working

278
00:13:12,830 --> 00:13:09,990
with are talking about whether that's

279
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:12,840
some form of trauma and abuse and

280
00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:16,770
dissociation which guess what that's an

281
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:20,310
altered state - or if you're dealing

282
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with the sacred

283
00:13:26,570 --> 00:13:24,570
I hope I'm giving a little bit of a

284
00:13:30,650 --> 00:13:26,580
perspective you know I've been working

285
00:13:33,380 --> 00:13:30,660
several decades now and so at this point

286
00:13:35,270 --> 00:13:33,390
I'm kind of looking back and and it's

287
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:35,280
beginning to make more sense than it

288
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:38,970
ever has yeah I'm still flying into this

289
00:13:45,950 --> 00:13:42,770
from the top level down and saying okay

290
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:45,960
transpersonal psychology that i think is

291
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:49,050
still pretty controversial within the

292
00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:51,810
field of psychology as a whole I know my

293
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:54,180
wife is a psychologist and used to be a

294
00:13:58,970 --> 00:13:56,690
clinical therapist and when

295
00:14:01,070 --> 00:13:58,980
transpersonal psychology was really

296
00:14:03,740 --> 00:14:01,080
first kind of getting its feet on the

297
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:03,750
ground 20 years ago I think it was much

298
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:06,560
more controversial what is the state of

299
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:09,330
transpersonal psychology how was it

300
00:14:14,890 --> 00:14:11,760
accepted within the psychology community

301
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:14,900
you know what I wouldn't say it so much

302
00:14:21,290 --> 00:14:18,090
not well thought of as it is dissociated

303
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:21,300
from the rest of psychology it's just

304
00:14:26,570 --> 00:14:23,810
it's out there in its own world and

305
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:26,580
psychology there is there is literally

306
00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:29,370
no bridge between clinical and

307
00:14:34,580 --> 00:14:31,560
transpersonal psychology that's why I

308
00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:34,590
wrote my second book the dark face of

309
00:14:39,410 --> 00:14:37,710
heaven which isn't out yet but because I

310
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:39,420
wanted to provide that bridge and the

311
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:42,240
bridge is trauma there's so much that

312
00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:44,010
needs to be integrated when you have an

313
00:14:47,810 --> 00:14:46,110
experience that's outside the box that

314
00:14:50,330 --> 00:14:47,820
in one way or another you're dealing

315
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:50,340
with an aspect of trauma isn't there

316
00:14:57,050 --> 00:14:54,050
somewhat of a grudging respect for

317
00:14:58,489 --> 00:14:57,060
transpersonal psychology as it's evolved

318
00:15:01,219 --> 00:14:58,499
over the last 20 years to it

319
00:15:03,699 --> 00:15:01,229
least acknowledged that there's a whole

320
00:15:07,299 --> 00:15:03,709
bunch of people that seemed to be having

321
00:15:11,239 --> 00:15:07,309
experiences that don't fit neatly into

322
00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:11,249
traditional clinical psychology so there

323
00:15:14,749 --> 00:15:13,049
are these experiences and we have to

324
00:15:17,749 --> 00:15:14,759
deal with them be they religious

325
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:17,759
experiences be they these other kind of

326
00:15:22,819 --> 00:15:20,399
anomalous kind of psychic experiences or

327
00:15:25,999 --> 00:15:22,829
you know really fringy being these kind

328
00:15:28,939 --> 00:15:26,009
of close encounter contact II

329
00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:28,949
experiences so big picture isn't has

330
00:15:34,729 --> 00:15:31,649
isn't transpersonal psychology made a

331
00:15:36,709 --> 00:15:34,739
little bit of headway there well if you

332
00:15:39,109 --> 00:15:36,719
look at the field of near-death studies

333
00:15:41,119 --> 00:15:39,119
everybody now knows what a near-death

334
00:15:43,639 --> 00:15:41,129
experience is I mean you can tune into

335
00:15:46,429 --> 00:15:43,649
the Simpsons and and find the dog having

336
00:15:49,159 --> 00:15:46,439
a near-death experience so sure yes

337
00:15:52,189 --> 00:15:49,169
there have been inroads but the field

338
00:15:55,009 --> 00:15:52,199
itself is largely disconnected and

339
00:15:58,039 --> 00:15:55,019
dissociated frankly I think that the the

340
00:16:01,129 --> 00:15:58,049
role that trauma plays in both clinical

341
00:16:03,739 --> 00:16:01,139
and transpersonal psychology is is the

342
00:16:05,809 --> 00:16:03,749
bridge is the bridge itself that's your

343
00:16:08,539 --> 00:16:05,819
thesis I mean that is an established

344
00:16:11,899 --> 00:16:08,549
that's just kind of what your work is

345
00:16:14,569 --> 00:16:11,909
telling you right right mm-hmm but that

346
00:16:16,249 --> 00:16:14,579
of course is extremely controversial and

347
00:16:18,769 --> 00:16:16,259
not a lot of people would jump on to

348
00:16:21,139 --> 00:16:18,779
that bandwagon right off the bat and I

349
00:16:24,439 --> 00:16:21,149
think part of the reason is that when we

350
00:16:27,259 --> 00:16:24,449
start talking about these non ordinary

351
00:16:30,259 --> 00:16:27,269
experiences don't we have a real problem

352
00:16:32,779 --> 00:16:30,269
in terms of once we go there once we

353
00:16:36,379 --> 00:16:32,789
leap over that chasm and say

354
00:16:39,919 --> 00:16:36,389
consciousness exists on these other non

355
00:16:42,589 --> 00:16:39,929
ordinary levels beyond our kind of day

356
00:16:45,199 --> 00:16:42,599
to day world isn't it kind of a

357
00:16:49,789 --> 00:16:45,209
free-for-all can we really put that back

358
00:16:52,549 --> 00:16:49,799
into an organized systematic way that we

359
00:16:54,739 --> 00:16:52,559
feel comfortable with from an academic

360
00:16:56,959 --> 00:16:54,749
from a clinical psychology from a

361
00:16:58,789 --> 00:16:56,969
medical kind of perspective can we

362
00:17:01,879 --> 00:16:58,799
really get there or is it always going

363
00:17:03,709 --> 00:17:01,889
to be this inability to integrate these

364
00:17:04,850 --> 00:17:03,719
two worlds because that's what I hear I

365
00:17:07,369 --> 00:17:04,860
mean as soon as you start talking about

366
00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:07,379
that that stuff sounds way out there I

367
00:17:12,350 --> 00:17:10,110
think for most people who are grounded

368
00:17:16,340 --> 00:17:12,360
where clinical psychology is

369
00:17:21,559 --> 00:17:16,350
in the mainstream well you know there is

370
00:17:22,610 --> 00:17:21,569
the thing of the topic itself is studied

371
00:17:28,580 --> 00:17:22,620
differently

372
00:17:30,919 --> 00:17:28,590
take a very nonlinear a nonlinear

373
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:30,929
experience and then provide just a

374
00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:33,600
linear frame to it

375
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:35,640
and john mack i don't know if you're

376
00:17:41,090 --> 00:17:38,480
familiar with his work the late

377
00:17:42,860 --> 00:17:41,100
psychiatrist the what nobel

378
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:42,870
prize-winning psychiatrist who worked

379
00:17:48,169 --> 00:17:45,690
with experiencers or alien abductees as

380
00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:48,179
they were called about a decade ago but

381
00:17:52,789 --> 00:17:50,070
he would he would point this out a lot

382
00:17:57,230 --> 00:17:52,799
that that you cannot study this in the

383
00:18:00,440 --> 00:17:57,240
same way that the topic itself you need

384
00:18:02,750 --> 00:18:00,450
to look at it you need to be open to a

385
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:02,760
different way to look at it as well and

386
00:18:08,090 --> 00:18:04,890
so i guess i have to say is that's the

387
00:18:11,570 --> 00:18:08,100
that's the exciting part about this is

388
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:11,580
as you start out with a very solid

389
00:18:16,850 --> 00:18:14,000
foundation trauma is the study clinical

390
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:16,860
psychology you study you know how to

391
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:20,970
work with altered states of abuse right

392
00:18:27,289 --> 00:18:24,000
and dissociation but then once you're on

393
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:27,299
the path you start to evolve as well as

394
00:18:32,060 --> 00:18:29,970
a clinician i can only say that that

395
00:18:36,260 --> 00:18:32,070
working with people that have had these

396
00:18:38,409 --> 00:18:36,270
encounters it opens up the door to a

397
00:18:42,049 --> 00:18:38,419
different way to experience life myself

398
00:18:44,180 --> 00:18:42,059
so you know so i can't remain in the old

399
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:44,190
view of science being totally objective

400
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:47,520
it cetera hope we're far along now that

401
00:18:52,510 --> 00:18:49,410
we know that that's just not how it is

402
00:18:55,250 --> 00:18:52,520
that our paradigm in our perspective

403
00:18:57,650 --> 00:18:55,260
influences how we're going to study this

404
00:19:02,090 --> 00:18:57,660
and so when you study the numinous

405
00:19:07,850 --> 00:19:02,100
you're opening that door up yourself to

406
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:07,860
to experiencing something like that even

407
00:19:12,830 --> 00:19:10,260
as you study it you know even as you

408
00:19:17,299 --> 00:19:12,840
treat it i hope that that doesn't sound

409
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:17,309
too too far out but well i think it's

410
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:19,110
challenging by the way I think I think

411
00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:21,210
Mac won the Pulitzer Prize

412
00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:22,950
not the Nobel Prize but I get your point

413
00:19:29,030 --> 00:19:26,910
Pulitzer I'm sorry okay but I get your

414
00:19:31,820 --> 00:19:29,040
point but it's it's challenging right

415
00:19:34,130 --> 00:19:31,830
and and there's some risks associated

416
00:19:37,370 --> 00:19:34,140
with that because certainly as a

417
00:19:39,860 --> 00:19:37,380
clinician getting too close losing a

418
00:19:42,020 --> 00:19:39,870
little bit of that perspective can be

419
00:19:44,299 --> 00:19:42,030
problematic as well I mean how do you

420
00:19:46,430 --> 00:19:44,309
deal with that let me put it in terms of

421
00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:46,440
you have an Iraqi war veteran who walks

422
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:48,720
into your office and says I'm suffering

423
00:19:54,350 --> 00:19:52,650
post-traumatic stress syndrome which 20

424
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:54,360
years ago again was highly controversial

425
00:19:58,760 --> 00:19:56,610
but now we'd say okay yeah and you'd

426
00:20:01,640 --> 00:19:58,770
have a series of protocols that you

427
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:01,650
might take that person through what are

428
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:04,110
the limits on what you can do with

429
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:05,250
someone like that

430
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:07,650
versus what you do with someone who

431
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:10,770
comes in and said I think I had an

432
00:20:16,460 --> 00:20:14,400
encounter with alien beings and I've had

433
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:16,470
this for a long time and it's really

434
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:18,960
causing me a lot of stress as a

435
00:20:22,610 --> 00:20:20,880
clinician how do you deal with those two

436
00:20:23,380 --> 00:20:22,620
situations how are they similar how are

437
00:20:26,299 --> 00:20:23,390
they different

438
00:20:28,250 --> 00:20:26,309
well there are similarities in the sense

439
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:28,260
of you know if you deal a lot with

440
00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:32,640
people with PTSD with war trauma you're

441
00:20:37,370 --> 00:20:35,070
probably going to get to a point where

442
00:20:39,460 --> 00:20:37,380
where you have to watch for burn now

443
00:20:42,740 --> 00:20:39,470
right you have to watch that you're not

444
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:42,750
vicariously experiencing their trauma

445
00:20:49,580 --> 00:20:45,600
that you're not also being traumatized

446
00:20:53,149 --> 00:20:49,590
yourself as you treat them and so it's

447
00:20:57,020 --> 00:20:53,159
it's similar with the with dealing with

448
00:21:00,430 --> 00:20:57,030
the non-ordinary as you you want to be

449
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:00,440
able to tell tell when you yourself are

450
00:21:06,919 --> 00:21:04,559
slipping into the the paradigm that

451
00:21:08,690 --> 00:21:06,929
they're presenting so you have to be

452
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:08,700
aware of it now there's no way that

453
00:21:13,909 --> 00:21:11,370
you're going to be able to totally wall

454
00:21:17,780 --> 00:21:13,919
that off I mean that that's where the

455
00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:17,790
the Alliance the the therapeutic

456
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:19,140
Alliance comes in

457
00:21:24,049 --> 00:21:21,570
well what about more on just a practical

458
00:21:26,090 --> 00:21:24,059
sense I mean we've also lived through in

459
00:21:28,669 --> 00:21:26,100
the last 20 years the whole controversy

460
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:28,679
still unresolved of repressed memories

461
00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:32,130
false memories and just on a more kind

462
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:34,950
of basic level people having

463
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:37,890
hallucinations or just in

464
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:41,010
venting stuff confabulating right so you

465
00:21:44,990 --> 00:21:42,690
have to deal with that that's part of

466
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:45,000
the therapists job too you know what I

467
00:21:50,810 --> 00:21:47,310
would say that the that the nervous

468
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:50,820
system we don't make up trauma the signs

469
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:53,250
of trauma are pretty well recognized now

470
00:21:58,880 --> 00:21:56,370
that knowledge and those experiences

471
00:22:00,890 --> 00:21:58,890
pretty much overwhelmed all of the

472
00:22:04,550 --> 00:22:00,900
questions of while are people making up

473
00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:04,560
things you want to treat it as trauma

474
00:22:11,420 --> 00:22:07,980
and to some degree respect what people

475
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:11,430
are saying even if you yourself are not

476
00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:14,670
sure of the objective so-called

477
00:22:20,540 --> 00:22:16,980
objective reality of what happened is

478
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:20,550
you want to be treating that and using

479
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:23,280
trauma methods I use EMDR a lot I

480
00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:25,200
movement desensitization and

481
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:29,520
reprocessing and it really does help the

482
00:22:35,150 --> 00:22:32,490
nervous system process things that are

483
00:22:38,150 --> 00:22:35,160
difficult hold on let's let's back up

484
00:22:40,460 --> 00:22:38,160
and tell people a little bit about EMDR

485
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:40,470
because I think in a way it's a small

486
00:22:45,890 --> 00:22:43,710
little case study in some of the topics

487
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:45,900
that I've just been probing because from

488
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:48,810
what I understand the clinical research

489
00:22:55,790 --> 00:22:53,010
on EMDR is quite strong I mean every way

490
00:22:58,880 --> 00:22:55,800
they've tested it it's found to be

491
00:23:01,280 --> 00:22:58,890
efficacious and in different modalities

492
00:23:03,740 --> 00:23:01,290
for different treatments all this stuff

493
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:03,750
and yet there's still this resistance to

494
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:06,480
it because what is really the theory

495
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:08,730
behind it and all the rest so in a lot

496
00:23:12,650 --> 00:23:11,250
of ways it kind of encapsulate some of

497
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:12,660
the discussion we've been having

498
00:23:17,330 --> 00:23:15,360
can you fill in some of the the sketchy

499
00:23:19,610 --> 00:23:17,340
details that I have there and tell us a

500
00:23:22,730 --> 00:23:19,620
little bit about that oh it's a

501
00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:22,740
bilateral stimulation and it's not just

502
00:23:27,770 --> 00:23:25,020
with eye movements but that's how it

503
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:27,780
started and and you basically you just

504
00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:30,690
you move the attention of the perps and

505
00:23:35,690 --> 00:23:34,140
from one side to the other from the

506
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:35,700
right to the left and the right to the

507
00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:37,770
left again and that helps the brain

508
00:23:42,260 --> 00:23:40,140
that's kind of what happens during REM

509
00:23:43,970 --> 00:23:42,270
sleep if you if you know how your eyes

510
00:23:46,730 --> 00:23:43,980
move back and forth when we're dreaming

511
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:46,740
we're processing material and that's

512
00:23:51,199 --> 00:23:48,960
what you do you just initiate the brains

513
00:23:53,329 --> 00:23:51,209
natural healing mechanism

514
00:23:56,749 --> 00:23:53,339
with that either through eye movements

515
00:23:59,509 --> 00:23:56,759
or or tapping bilateral tapping and I've

516
00:24:01,249 --> 00:23:59,519
used this with all kinds of difficult

517
00:24:06,529 --> 00:24:01,259
situations but I just want to put out

518
00:24:09,649 --> 00:24:06,539
that if people who have had any kind of

519
00:24:12,399 --> 00:24:09,659
non ordinary experience can get

520
00:24:16,939 --> 00:24:12,409
themselves to a mental health

521
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:16,949
professional and and ask for EMDR it can

522
00:24:22,009 --> 00:24:19,440
really help to bring them out of

523
00:24:24,739 --> 00:24:22,019
whatever state of difficulty they're in

524
00:24:26,930 --> 00:24:24,749
and I've used it with people with what I

525
00:24:29,419 --> 00:24:26,940
consider to be close encounters and it

526
00:24:32,109 --> 00:24:29,429
helps a lot it's just that people at

527
00:24:36,069 --> 00:24:32,119
this point when I talk about

528
00:24:38,689 --> 00:24:36,079
transpersonal psychology being disowned

529
00:24:40,609 --> 00:24:38,699
traditional psychology it's that people

530
00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:40,619
don't realize that you can actually go

531
00:24:44,869 --> 00:24:42,809
to a therapist and you can say I want to

532
00:24:47,869 --> 00:24:44,879
work on something that was really scary

533
00:24:49,669 --> 00:24:47,879
for me when I was out of my body say if

534
00:24:53,479 --> 00:24:49,679
you you know if you can find somebody

535
00:24:56,419 --> 00:24:53,489
that's open it it really does help we're

536
00:25:01,459 --> 00:24:56,429
just in the last few decades realizing

537
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:01,469
the prevalence of the incidence of

538
00:25:08,180 --> 00:25:05,369
sexual trauma and abuse and and

539
00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:08,190
childhood abuse and the people go to

540
00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:10,619
therapy now for that and I wish that

541
00:25:17,629 --> 00:25:15,329
people were begin to be more open to

542
00:25:22,129 --> 00:25:17,639
dealing with the non-ordinary in a

543
00:25:24,769 --> 00:25:22,139
therapeutic setting that will evolve and

544
00:25:26,899 --> 00:25:24,779
heal some of this split that I see

545
00:25:30,109 --> 00:25:26,909
between you know as we talked about

546
00:25:31,549 --> 00:25:30,119
transpersonal clinical psychology so

547
00:25:34,629 --> 00:25:31,559
people that have had Close Encounters

548
00:25:38,779 --> 00:25:34,639
for example they may not tell anybody

549
00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:38,789
about this for decades and I may be the

550
00:25:45,289 --> 00:25:43,049
first person they tell ok and they come

551
00:25:48,169 --> 00:25:45,299
in and yet you can see that they've held

552
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:48,179
in they've had to dissociate this and

553
00:25:55,339 --> 00:25:52,559
they've held in some really hard to deal

554
00:25:58,339 --> 00:25:55,349
with aspects of it and that doesn't do

555
00:26:00,529 --> 00:25:58,349
you any good well yeah yeah and and

556
00:26:02,809 --> 00:26:00,539
maybe there's a reason to be cautious I

557
00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:02,819
came in contact with you dr. coldly

558
00:26:08,030 --> 00:26:04,860
through Mike Leland at Hidden

559
00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:08,040
experience podcast and mike tells an

560
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:11,480
interesting story on in his show about

561
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:15,330
living in a small town and having a lot

562
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:18,570
of feelings depression associated with

563
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:20,640
these experiences that he's had these

564
00:26:25,130 --> 00:26:23,130
anomalous experiences and he goes in to

565
00:26:27,410 --> 00:26:25,140
see a therapist and again he doesn't

566
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:27,420
claim to have a contact he experienced

567
00:26:32,780 --> 00:26:29,330
he just claims to have these rather

568
00:26:35,539 --> 00:26:32,790
unique anomalous experiences after a

569
00:26:38,270 --> 00:26:35,549
session she goes you know here's the

570
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:38,280
medication you're disturbed consider

571
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:40,650
kind of checking yourself in kind of

572
00:26:45,530 --> 00:26:43,530
thing so the reality that people are

573
00:26:51,230 --> 00:26:45,540
going to find if they do seek help is

574
00:26:53,450 --> 00:26:51,240
just a wide spectrum of health care that

575
00:26:56,060 --> 00:26:53,460
they might receive and I think it it in

576
00:26:58,730 --> 00:26:56,070
a funny way it goes back to even though

577
00:27:01,100 --> 00:26:58,740
I don't like the way that you kind of

578
00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:01,110
packaged it in terms of that the

579
00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:03,600
therapist is really this partner and

580
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:05,400
it's all about their experience and we

581
00:27:10,430 --> 00:27:07,679
can't get any kind of separation from it

582
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:10,440
clearly that is the case and I guess we

583
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:11,970
should probably just be more open about

584
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:14,130
it and say you know that therapist is

585
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:16,490
bringing a whole set of beliefs and

586
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:18,720
preconceived notions to the table that

587
00:27:21,950 --> 00:27:20,490
can really play into this whole thing

588
00:27:24,730 --> 00:27:21,960
now I want to be clear I'm not saying

589
00:27:27,380 --> 00:27:24,740
there is no separation but I'm saying I

590
00:27:30,020 --> 00:27:27,390
don't think I said there's no separation

591
00:27:31,970 --> 00:27:30,030
I'm saying there is a separation but

592
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:31,980
it's not going to be some objective a

593
00:27:37,310 --> 00:27:35,250
you know objective reality and wall that

594
00:27:39,950 --> 00:27:37,320
we put up where we're the clinician over

595
00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:39,960
here were the scientist over here and

596
00:27:44,750 --> 00:27:40,860
over there

597
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:44,760
they're the patient so you know I'm

598
00:27:49,820 --> 00:27:47,490
saying there's got to be some there's

599
00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:49,830
got to be you're going to participate in

600
00:27:54,350 --> 00:27:52,200
some way with these numinous experiences

601
00:27:58,180 --> 00:27:54,360
everybody that's a that studies it

602
00:28:02,260 --> 00:27:58,190
deeply whether it's in the near-death

603
00:28:06,919 --> 00:28:02,270
world your death research or studies

604
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:06,929
people people are impacted greatly by by

605
00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:09,809
just listening to this okay and so I

606
00:28:16,190 --> 00:28:11,910
just wanted to acknowledge that I don't

607
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:16,200
say that it's entirely entirely without

608
00:28:20,150 --> 00:28:18,240
boundaries of course not other

609
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:20,160
I wouldn't call I wouldn't be a doctor

610
00:28:25,850 --> 00:28:23,610
so and there's all sorts of boundaries

611
00:28:28,010 --> 00:28:25,860
you know I had a conversation a while

612
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:28,020
back with a guy I really like he's the

613
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:30,240
head of the Religious Studies department

614
00:28:34,850 --> 00:28:33,450
at Rice University every crackle

615
00:28:36,890 --> 00:28:34,860
Geoffrey crapple written some great

616
00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:36,900
books we get all the way through the end

617
00:28:41,419 --> 00:28:39,150
he's obviously dealing with some very

618
00:28:43,220 --> 00:28:41,429
out-there kind of stuff like we are

619
00:28:46,610 --> 00:28:43,230
about consciousness about our connection

620
00:28:49,850 --> 00:28:46,620
to super beings and and all this stuff

621
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:49,860
at the end of the show we get talking

622
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:52,559
and he goes but Alex there is a crazy

623
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:54,690
line out there and we don't want to go

624
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:56,490
over the crazy line and he keeps talking

625
00:29:01,520 --> 00:28:58,559
about the crazy line of and he's talking

626
00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:01,530
about UFO abductees he's talking about

627
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:03,809
people that believe that the example he

628
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:07,050
is people who believe that there's alien

629
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:09,510
bases underground for example now that's

630
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:11,250
his crazy line I don't know about that

631
00:29:15,860 --> 00:29:13,440
crazy line but I know I wouldn't

632
00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:15,870
necessarily I don't know I don't know

633
00:29:19,250 --> 00:29:17,940
knowledge of that isn't that interesting

634
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:19,260
that we are all gonna have a different

635
00:29:23,540 --> 00:29:21,330
crazy line isn't that interesting

636
00:29:26,540 --> 00:29:23,550
and it isn't doesn't that create some

637
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:26,550
real problems I mean the I am one hand I

638
00:29:30,650 --> 00:29:28,320
appreciate his honesty because we all

639
00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:30,660
have kind of a crazy line but on the

640
00:29:37,580 --> 00:29:32,990
other hand aren't we constantly

641
00:29:38,210 --> 00:29:37,590
redefining this crazy line and that's a

642
00:29:39,919 --> 00:29:38,220
good point

643
00:29:42,140 --> 00:29:39,929
you know it's interested you're talking

644
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:42,150
about him he's gonna do be he's gonna do

645
00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:44,670
the foreword for my second book make

646
00:29:51,530 --> 00:29:47,390
sure you don't go over the crazy line

647
00:29:53,540 --> 00:29:51,540
that he very much shares the the trauma

648
00:29:56,180 --> 00:29:53,550
can be the introduction into the

649
00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:56,190
numinous and into the sacred and so so

650
00:30:03,200 --> 00:29:58,320
we have common ground we've managed to

651
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:03,210
cross to cross our own crazy lines into

652
00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:06,450
a common ground ourselves and if we can

653
00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:08,640
do that I'm sure that many other many

654
00:30:13,850 --> 00:30:10,500
other professionals can't oh I do want

655
00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:13,860
to touch upon what you said about going

656
00:30:18,410 --> 00:30:16,200
to a mental health professional I just

657
00:30:22,250 --> 00:30:18,420
want to say is if you get somebody that

658
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,260
says that tries to diagnose and

659
00:30:27,620 --> 00:30:24,480
prescribe you in a way that you don't

660
00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:27,630
feel is appropriate well then then you

661
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:31,110
move on but you don't stop there is you

662
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:31,650
know

663
00:30:37,580 --> 00:30:34,710
days people are finding me they look

664
00:30:42,410 --> 00:30:37,590
under spiritual emergency or

665
00:30:44,270 --> 00:30:42,420
transpersonal as well as the MDR but and

666
00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:44,280
there are other clinicians out there but

667
00:30:50,390 --> 00:30:47,460
don't stop there is is if you have a

668
00:30:54,110 --> 00:30:50,400
sense that that their treatment and

669
00:30:57,020 --> 00:30:54,120
their perspective doesn't work for you

670
00:30:59,930 --> 00:30:57,030
then move on but that in and of itself

671
00:31:03,050 --> 00:30:59,940
is you know even even if you're you're

672
00:31:05,630 --> 00:31:03,060
gonna have to push it's going to be

673
00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:05,640
worth it and I just I just want to say

674
00:31:12,260 --> 00:31:08,940
that okay so dr. Cully you've written

675
00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:12,270
this book sacred encounters spiritual

676
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:14,310
awakenings during close encounters

677
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:16,770
people get it right from the beginning

678
00:31:21,260 --> 00:31:19,200
what you're talking about can you for a

679
00:31:22,970 --> 00:31:21,270
minute play a little game for me I want

680
00:31:24,860 --> 00:31:22,980
you to play devil's advocate for a

681
00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:24,870
minute because I think it helps define

682
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:29,790
for people this idea of the crazy line

683
00:31:33,890 --> 00:31:32,490
being a little bit more fuzzy than we

684
00:31:37,580 --> 00:31:33,900
think it is because I think we walk

685
00:31:41,150 --> 00:31:37,590
around like dr. [\h__\h] who's a great

686
00:31:42,890 --> 00:31:41,160
guy but has this rigid crazy line and

687
00:31:45,050 --> 00:31:42,900
not realizing that you know what that

688
00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:45,060
crazy lines a lot fuzzier than we think

689
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:47,220
it is and I think pressing up against

690
00:31:52,130 --> 00:31:49,530
that and realizing it's more fuzzy it's

691
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:52,140
a very freeing thing the question isn't

692
00:32:02,180 --> 00:31:55,650
how would I explain it away the question

693
00:32:05,750 --> 00:32:02,190
is what do I find along with it that I

694
00:32:09,020 --> 00:32:05,760
also have to watch out for or just be

695
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:09,030
aware of we used to have a sense that

696
00:32:13,550 --> 00:32:11,310
people who've had these experiences are

697
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:13,560
wacko that they're going to be a

698
00:32:20,350 --> 00:32:16,890
diagnoseable and abnormal and maybe even

699
00:32:23,690 --> 00:32:20,360
schizophrenic okay that view has changed

700
00:32:26,150 --> 00:32:23,700
well in the last decade and I brought up

701
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:26,160
John Mac before and he took great pains

702
00:32:31,340 --> 00:32:29,250
to point out that that all kinds of

703
00:32:34,340 --> 00:32:31,350
people have had these experiences and

704
00:32:37,550 --> 00:32:34,350
their professional and professionals

705
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:37,560
have had this and you know all so we

706
00:32:41,510 --> 00:32:39,960
would like to outline all the many

707
00:32:44,270 --> 00:32:41,520
different kinds of people that have

708
00:32:45,210 --> 00:32:44,280
these encounters and so that took place

709
00:32:48,330 --> 00:32:45,220
within the

710
00:32:56,460 --> 00:32:48,340
last decade what I what I would say now

711
00:32:59,310 --> 00:32:56,470
is what I what I also see is that you

712
00:33:02,970 --> 00:32:59,320
can't say either way you can't say just

713
00:33:07,010 --> 00:33:02,980
just speaking to this makes it authentic

714
00:33:09,659 --> 00:33:07,020
or or makes a person on the other hand a

715
00:33:13,289 --> 00:33:09,669
candidate for mental illness because

716
00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:13,299
you're gonna have cases that bridge both

717
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:15,640
you're gonna have cases where you can

718
00:33:21,539 --> 00:33:18,970
see something something has happened but

719
00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:21,549
but maybe the framework of the person's

720
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:26,350
personality right is going to be make

721
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:30,610
the the experience incoherent you see

722
00:33:35,850 --> 00:33:33,490
now that's a tricky one do you

723
00:33:37,140 --> 00:33:35,860
understand what I'm saying so that so

724
00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:37,150
that you could have somebody with a

725
00:33:47,130 --> 00:33:44,110
personality disorder say or and they so

726
00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:47,140
that their their psyche cannot handle

727
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:50,289
the energy okay their psyche can't

728
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:52,210
handle the energy but you can tell that

729
00:34:00,659 --> 00:33:56,370
there's been something something that

730
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:00,669
you know I'll just use the word numinous

731
00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:02,890
again something numinous or something

732
00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:04,780
extraordinary that they've encountered

733
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:06,760
but that there you're not gonna get a

734
00:34:13,290 --> 00:34:09,970
real good coherent picture of it because

735
00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:13,300
of the nature of their psyche so I've

736
00:34:18,119 --> 00:34:15,550
gone beyond either saying oh these

737
00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:18,129
people are perfectly ordinary or or

738
00:34:25,169 --> 00:34:21,849
these people are absolutely mentally ill

739
00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:25,179
okay so so and and this tells me that

740
00:34:30,839 --> 00:34:28,000
I'm on the right track because you're

741
00:34:33,149 --> 00:34:30,849
gonna have this with any phenomena on

742
00:34:36,089 --> 00:34:33,159
say I mean you have people going into

743
00:34:38,730 --> 00:34:36,099
war and in some of these you know you

744
00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:38,740
may have somebody that's totally unfit

745
00:34:44,369 --> 00:34:41,250
for that situation and they crack up

746
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:44,379
okay and so you know they've been

747
00:34:51,419 --> 00:34:47,050
subjected to a trauma that their psyche

748
00:34:54,750 --> 00:34:51,429
just simply can't process and and we we

749
00:34:58,290 --> 00:34:54,760
know that war trauma is real well it's

750
00:35:02,570 --> 00:34:58,300
the same for this phenomenon so I

751
00:35:06,090 --> 00:35:02,580
I have to be aware that the psyche is a

752
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:06,100
container of itself and it can only

753
00:35:13,860 --> 00:35:09,310
handle so much stress and so much either

754
00:35:16,590 --> 00:35:13,870
they shift to a dynamic that is more

755
00:35:20,780 --> 00:35:16,600
efficient and effective and a higher

756
00:35:23,220 --> 00:35:20,790
order one or they crack under the strain

757
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:23,230
so that's the most interesting thing to

758
00:35:28,110 --> 00:35:25,330
me is where is that balance you know

759
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:28,120
when you're working with someone so that

760
00:35:33,630 --> 00:35:31,090
once again what can you tell about the

761
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:33,640
actual experience apart from the person

762
00:35:38,610 --> 00:35:36,250
that's sitting across from you and and

763
00:35:41,130 --> 00:35:38,620
you know how their psyche is dealt with

764
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:41,140
it but I'm pretty clear at this point

765
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:44,290
that there's enough I've seen enough and

766
00:35:49,470 --> 00:35:47,050
I've certainly researched enough that

767
00:35:51,690 --> 00:35:49,480
that there's something let's just say

768
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:51,700
something out there that there are I

769
00:36:00,500 --> 00:35:54,000
would even go so far as to say beings

770
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:00,510
beings that are non-human that are

771
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:04,410
higher of higher order intelligences and

772
00:36:13,710 --> 00:36:08,110
that we can have interaction and that we

773
00:36:15,990 --> 00:36:13,720
can gain gain enormous Lee from the

774
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:16,000
interaction and evolve and that's

775
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:18,310
exactly what's happening I believe on

776
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:20,650
the planet and you believe that because

777
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:22,690
your clinical work with people who say

778
00:36:29,580 --> 00:36:25,240
they've encountered these beings oh yes

779
00:36:31,620 --> 00:36:29,590
and your entry point into that is trauma

780
00:36:33,690 --> 00:36:31,630
take us through that connection between

781
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:33,700
what you just said the trauma that these

782
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:35,890
folks have experienced and your

783
00:36:40,770 --> 00:36:38,800
conclusion that there are beings that

784
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:40,780
they're that they're interacting with

785
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:43,450
number one and that these beings are of

786
00:36:49,830 --> 00:36:47,050
a higher order of consciousness number

787
00:36:52,350 --> 00:36:49,840
two anything that is outside your

788
00:36:55,470 --> 00:36:52,360
ordinary paradigm is going to

789
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:55,480
potentially be difficult to process

790
00:37:00,320 --> 00:36:57,280
if you encounter something that is

791
00:37:03,450 --> 00:37:00,330
outside of your view of reality outside

792
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:03,460
of your paradigm that's gonna have to be

793
00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:05,770
processed and your view of reality is

794
00:37:11,430 --> 00:37:08,680
gonna have to expand and that's what I

795
00:37:11,849 --> 00:37:11,440
mean when I say these experiences have

796
00:37:13,859 --> 00:37:11,859
the Powe

797
00:37:17,220 --> 00:37:13,869
potential for expanding ones

798
00:37:19,979 --> 00:37:17,230
conciousness it can be physiological as

799
00:37:22,769 --> 00:37:19,989
well because once you've been through

800
00:37:26,130 --> 00:37:22,779
something that's incredibly traumatic

801
00:37:31,979 --> 00:37:26,140
and you heal from that generally you're

802
00:37:34,109 --> 00:37:31,989
gonna have a a wider range of responses

803
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:34,119
you're gonna know something about how to

804
00:37:40,019 --> 00:37:37,690
be in your body under great stress so

805
00:37:43,979 --> 00:37:40,029
dealing with the trauma is the first

806
00:37:47,130 --> 00:37:43,989
aspect anything extraordinary has the

807
00:37:50,059 --> 00:37:47,140
potential of being difficult or

808
00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:50,069
traumatic even if the upshot of it is

809
00:37:53,999 --> 00:37:52,390
positive okay

810
00:37:56,519 --> 00:37:54,009
I like the idea I like the whole thing a

811
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:56,529
trauma being kind of common denominator

812
00:38:01,200 --> 00:37:58,960
here and I like why you say as a

813
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:01,210
clinician I can feel pretty confident

814
00:38:04,799 --> 00:38:02,890
going into trauma there's a grounding

815
00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:04,809
there that I'd say oh this is trauma we

816
00:38:07,289 --> 00:38:05,950
know it there are the physical

817
00:38:09,809 --> 00:38:07,299
characteristics here the emotional

818
00:38:11,789 --> 00:38:09,819
character Baba Baba I get that and then

819
00:38:13,650 --> 00:38:11,799
I hear you saying that gives you

820
00:38:16,739 --> 00:38:13,660
confidence to say okay there's something

821
00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:16,749
there to work with then how do you get

822
00:38:20,549 --> 00:38:18,880
to the point to where you want you to

823
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:20,559
support what you just said that is that

824
00:38:27,569 --> 00:38:23,950
what you're working with is people who

825
00:38:31,049 --> 00:38:27,579
have got encountered other beings beings

826
00:38:33,749 --> 00:38:31,059
of a higher ordered consciousness beings

827
00:38:35,789 --> 00:38:33,759
from outside of our solar system how do

828
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:35,799
you get to all that okay so the first

829
00:38:40,979 --> 00:38:38,079
part was trauma the second part is the

830
00:38:43,650 --> 00:38:40,989
higher-order intelligence or the

831
00:38:47,489 --> 00:38:43,660
higher-order consciousness that people

832
00:38:50,549 --> 00:38:47,499
are capable of of experiencing or

833
00:38:52,910 --> 00:38:50,559
entering as a result and what I'd like

834
00:38:56,039 --> 00:38:52,920
to say is and this goes back to my

835
00:38:59,069 --> 00:38:56,049
mentioning again and again transpersonal

836
00:39:02,099 --> 00:38:59,079
psychology which deals with non ordinary

837
00:39:06,180 --> 00:39:02,109
or altered states of consciousness that

838
00:39:08,729 --> 00:39:06,190
people have had experiences of this

839
00:39:11,940 --> 00:39:08,739
nature with the close encounters that

840
00:39:14,370 --> 00:39:11,950
have taken them out of subject-object

841
00:39:18,539 --> 00:39:14,380
consciousness now subject/object

842
00:39:21,809 --> 00:39:18,549
consciousness is pretty much our the

843
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:21,819
standard domain here on this planet and

844
00:39:25,830 --> 00:39:25,210
which we pretty much see the objects as

845
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:25,840
separate

846
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:29,110
and then we somehow as the background

847
00:39:35,250 --> 00:39:33,490
perhaps can perceive the unity with not

848
00:39:38,940 --> 00:39:35,260
with unity consciousness it's the

849
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:38,950
opposite so you perceive the unity first

850
00:39:45,690 --> 00:39:43,330
and the differences set a secondary a

851
00:39:48,540 --> 00:39:45,700
good example of this is Edgar Mitchell's

852
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:48,550
experience when he anybody that goes

853
00:39:54,780 --> 00:39:51,130
outside into space it's called the

854
00:39:58,650 --> 00:39:54,790
outlier effect they have a tendency to

855
00:40:02,520 --> 00:39:58,660
have some non-ordinary or some shift of

856
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:02,530
consciousness happen and so he went into

857
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:07,450
unity consciousness as part of his his

858
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:10,330
reentry or is yet right I don't know the

859
00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:12,490
technical term for that but yes when he

860
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:15,180
was in space when people encounter

861
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:18,400
something that takes them out of their

862
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:20,770
ordinary state of consciousness indeed

863
00:40:26,610 --> 00:40:23,890
the the pretty much the common state of

864
00:40:29,940 --> 00:40:26,620
consciousness for Humanity now and

865
00:40:34,650 --> 00:40:29,950
they're brought into non you know into

866
00:40:38,580 --> 00:40:34,660
either unity or a higher-order state of

867
00:40:43,260 --> 00:40:38,590
consciousness then then you look at what

868
00:40:45,330 --> 00:40:43,270
caused that to happen and you look at

869
00:40:48,260 --> 00:40:45,340
the effect of that that's why I'm

870
00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:48,270
studying and working with these people

871
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:52,470
because it is transforming them and

872
00:40:59,760 --> 00:40:55,450
bringing them into higher-order state

873
00:41:03,870 --> 00:40:59,770
it's the mind that is doing that is

874
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:03,880
generally already there the the being

875
00:41:10,740 --> 00:41:08,650
that is encountered is already in AI or

876
00:41:14,540 --> 00:41:10,750
order state it's kind of like the way

877
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:14,550
the Guru system works with Shakti Pot or

878
00:41:21,540 --> 00:41:18,310
darshan is you you step up your

879
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:21,550
vibration to the level of the Guru

880
00:41:27,540 --> 00:41:24,250
during these periods where you're in

881
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:27,550
their presence or when they're giving

882
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:30,730
you an energetic hit right the its it

883
00:41:35,390 --> 00:41:33,280
upgrades your vibration and that's

884
00:41:37,410 --> 00:41:35,400
what's happening during these encounters

885
00:41:38,170 --> 00:41:37,420
so there's there are degrees of

886
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:38,180
enlightened

887
00:41:44,410 --> 00:41:41,450
and I want to look at what happens in

888
00:41:47,230 --> 00:41:44,420
close encounters when people's state of

889
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:47,240
consciousness is altered and it affects

890
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:50,240
their whole life well it's a fascinating

891
00:41:55,359 --> 00:41:52,910
and important body work on so many

892
00:41:57,609 --> 00:41:55,369
levels and as I think we tried to touch

893
00:42:00,789 --> 00:41:57,619
on some of those the first being that

894
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:00,799
folks who have who feel that they've

895
00:42:06,130 --> 00:42:03,049
been traumatized by these kind of

896
00:42:08,829 --> 00:42:06,140
experiences there there are resources

897
00:42:11,109 --> 00:42:08,839
out there for them to process it deal

898
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:11,119
with it and hopefully as you're talking

899
00:42:17,279 --> 00:42:14,690
about actually use it to move forward in

900
00:42:19,690 --> 00:42:17,289
their life in a positive way it's a

901
00:42:21,609 --> 00:42:19,700
wonderful book it's going to be very

902
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:21,619
challenging for a lot of our listeners

903
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:24,319
to get into but I hope that we've given

904
00:42:29,740 --> 00:42:27,200
them maybe a small sense of why they

905
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:29,750
might want to go there and explore this

906
00:42:36,039 --> 00:42:32,630
possibility again the book is sacred

907
00:42:39,190 --> 00:42:36,049
encounters spiritual awakenings during

908
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:39,200
close encounters dr. Janet Elizabeth

909
00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:41,930
Coley is the author and thanks so much

910
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:45,049
for joining us today dr. Coley you're

911
00:42:52,510 --> 00:42:50,720
welcome thank you for having me thanks

912
00:42:54,910 --> 00:42:52,520
again to dr. Coley for joining me today

913
00:42:56,799 --> 00:42:54,920
on skeptic Oh a couple of questions RT

914
00:42:59,799 --> 00:42:56,809
up from this interview and I think they

915
00:43:01,930 --> 00:42:59,809
center around this idea of experience

916
00:43:04,089 --> 00:43:01,940
because we've bumped up against this

917
00:43:06,490 --> 00:43:04,099
before you know it's interesting of

918
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:06,500
course because the mainstream science

919
00:43:10,930 --> 00:43:09,170
skeptical argument you'll get against

920
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:10,940
all these kind of phenomena that we've

921
00:43:15,510 --> 00:43:13,250
explored on this show be they near-death

922
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:15,520
experience out-of-body experience

923
00:43:21,460 --> 00:43:18,160
precognitive experience all these

924
00:43:23,460 --> 00:43:21,470
experiences those are not scientific we

925
00:43:26,410 --> 00:43:23,470
cannot explore those because they're the

926
00:43:28,510 --> 00:43:26,420
internal experience of an individual and

927
00:43:31,140 --> 00:43:28,520
we can never get there and one thing

928
00:43:33,819 --> 00:43:31,150
that's interesting when you jump over to

929
00:43:35,829 --> 00:43:33,829
psychology and many of the other social

930
00:43:38,829 --> 00:43:35,839
sciences immediately see that that

931
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:38,839
prohibition against understanding or

932
00:43:43,769 --> 00:43:41,510
exploring human experience doesn't exist

933
00:43:46,930 --> 00:43:43,779
there would be no such thing as

934
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:46,940
psychology or psychiatry if we weren't

935
00:43:50,859 --> 00:43:49,910
willing to try and understand human

936
00:43:51,220 --> 00:43:50,869
experience

937
00:43:53,859 --> 00:43:51,230
it's

938
00:43:57,010 --> 00:43:53,869
a bizarre claim that's made about this

939
00:43:59,170 --> 00:43:57,020
we can't approach experience so what dr.

940
00:44:01,870 --> 00:43:59,180
Coley does is even more interesting than

941
00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:01,880
that she goes okay I'm in this area of

942
00:44:06,130 --> 00:44:04,310
transpersonal psychology that's really

943
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:06,140
kind of fringy in terms of trying to

944
00:44:10,540 --> 00:44:07,760
understand these non ordinary

945
00:44:14,050 --> 00:44:10,550
experiences what I'm gonna do is start

946
00:44:16,210 --> 00:44:14,060
from trauma because we understand trauma

947
00:44:18,670 --> 00:44:16,220
we accept that trauma happens and it

948
00:44:20,500 --> 00:44:18,680
leaves these physical markers these

949
00:44:22,180 --> 00:44:20,510
physical scars and people that are

950
00:44:24,849 --> 00:44:22,190
common and they're common throughout all

951
00:44:27,550 --> 00:44:24,859
these experiences but it still begs the

952
00:44:30,670 --> 00:44:27,560
question the larger question of what do

953
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:30,680
we do with human experience how do we

954
00:44:35,770 --> 00:44:32,930
approach it from a scientific

955
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:35,780
perspective it's a topic that we've

956
00:44:40,900 --> 00:44:39,050
touched on several different times on

957
00:44:43,060 --> 00:44:40,910
this show but I think it's one that's

958
00:44:45,130 --> 00:44:43,070
worth bringing up again particularly

959
00:44:47,020 --> 00:44:45,140
when we're talking about and trying to

960
00:44:50,349 --> 00:44:47,030
get our arms around these these

961
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:50,359
experiences that are so outside of what

962
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:53,090
many people will normally accept and

963
00:44:59,590 --> 00:44:56,650
that is experiences of encounters with

964
00:45:01,420 --> 00:44:59,600
alien beings so there's a bunch of

965
00:45:03,010 --> 00:45:01,430
questions kind of wrapped together in

966
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:03,020
there so that's probably enough to

967
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:05,570
tackle from this one show and of course

968
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:07,730
we'd love to hear from you and have you

969
00:45:12,580 --> 00:45:10,130
offered your opinions and your ideas on

970
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:12,590
that the place to do it of course is the

971
00:45:19,750 --> 00:45:17,570
Skeptical website at sk EPT Iko com you

972
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:19,760
can leave a comment right there on the

973
00:45:24,250 --> 00:45:22,250
website or bounce over to our forum and

974
00:45:26,650 --> 00:45:24,260
join the discussion there while you're

975
00:45:29,410 --> 00:45:26,660
at skeptic oh you can check out any of

976
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:29,420
our over 200 previous shows or drop me a

977
00:45:33,580 --> 00:45:32,240
note via email or Facebook well that's

978
00:45:36,130 --> 00:45:33,590
going to do it for this episode of

979
00:45:39,130 --> 00:45:36,140
skeptic oh I I have several interesting

980
00:45:43,060 --> 00:45:39,140
shows coming up a couple more on this

981
00:45:46,420 --> 00:45:43,070
UFO contactee experience and some other

982
00:45:48,430 --> 00:45:46,430
familiar topics as well please stay with